So last night I was in a rather animated conversation with some folks and an interesting couple of questions were asked regarding relationships, which I will share with you folks.
Question for the women
Would you stay in a relationship where the man is unfaithful, a liar, beats you, waste the family money and does not look after you and the kids?
Question for the men
Would you remain in a relationship, where the woman cheats on you , lies, waste your money and constantly asking from money from you despite you giving everything you can.
No one answered in the affirmative, they spoke works that I cannot write here.
So the next question was :
Why the deep love affair with the PNP/JLP , more so with the the PNP?
Persons thought for a second and then responded ( what I can recall)
- Well its very different in our relationship, its at an individual level, for politics I am not in love with the party I just support them all the time.
- Well I never really see it the same way, being with someone is very different. A political party is collection of individuals with like minds and I don’t feel connected to the party as I would be with my partner. When my partner hurts me, its just me its very personal, when my party hurts me its not me alone, so I don’t take it personal.
- Its very different, in your partners case there is a lot of emotions involved, while from the party level its a lot less. I really don’t love the party I am a supporter of the party.
- Well from where I sit this is my take, we only have two parties , I personally don’t like the leadership of the JLP from Eddie time and so I supported the PNP. Its not because I love them, its because I really don’t like the alternative.
- You cannot look at it like that, a relationship is deeply emotional and no one will accept being cheated on etc. As far as the politics is concerned I just stay away from the process and while I know that is not the answer, I am not giving either of those two my support.
While many people would suggest that love is blind I would want to put forward the view that “politics” is blind.
Jamaicans need to come to the realization that blind “love” for a party will NEVER get us their, we must instead seek to challenge those in our own parties to get the job done otherwise we can kiss the prospects of Jamaica moving forward goodbye.
I wish one day perhaps in the next 20 yrs, that Jamaicans decide to become significantly more aware and is able to distinguish between good and bad, write and wrong, sense from nonsense and be prepared to challenge even those we fully support to prove their worth.
In real business its mostly clear cut and very little “love”. You will hear the boss saying ” Jay you are a nice guy, you get along well with everyone, but you are failing to deliver where it matters most. You were employed to deliver X and so far despite the many assurances , you have missed many deadlines, you have not delivered despite your immense talent and so we have taken the decision that we have to part company with you. This is not a personal attack on you as an individual, it may simply be that this job / position or company is just not the right one for you at this time.”
Does my boss hates me or is he looking out for the best interest of the organization?
Is he trying to spite me for being popular or is he trying to ensuring that the organization can deliver on its stated objective and meets is performance goals?
Should he reward incompetence by promoting me or shifting me to another department, even though he knows deep down that I will eventually fail ?
When will we bell the political cat and stop accepting the many lies ?
Warren's Blog 
Peter said ” we have met all the preconditions s required by the IMF”.
Was that a true statement ?
If it was true why is the GOJ talking to Big banks ?
A pre-condition was that ALL Public Sector workers should have agreed to a wage freeze. Unless I heard wrong , the nurses and cops have yet to sign.
So Dr Phillips please let us know what we are missing.
What qualifies Horace Daley to speak on matter regarding the status of the IMF negotiations ?
He works in the ministry of finance. He leads the process of the wage negotiations.
That does not qualify him in my mind to speak on the IMF negotiations. Yes he is good to speak on public sector wages, that is it!
As far as I know he is not a part of the negotiating team.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device from LIME.
sorry boss never realize you have to certify who is qualified 🙂
But on a serious note, if he is asked and has the answers are you saying he should not provide it? I makes sense, he is a member of the cabinet.
Does he have the answers ?
Let’s hope at tomorrows press conference we don’t have the real finance minister qualifying the answers provided.
The IMF deal has been nothing but bungling thus far. No clarity at all.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device from LIME.
He certainly provided the answers to at least 2 of the questions you asked above (9:48 am)
“I personally don’t like the leadership of the JLP from Eddie time and so I supported the PNP. Its not because I love them, its because I really don’t like the alternative”
And this strikes at the heart of the matter as to why the JLP has had trouble winning contested elections since the 1980s (even in 1983 a Stone poll indicated that the JLP would have lost had the PNP contested that election). And the truth is that the JLP has turned itself into a machine that doesn’t understand democracy. Because if I’m not mistaken the last time the JLP had a contested leadership contest for president of the party was when Wilton Hill challenged Seaga for the post in 1974 and lost badly. If I am not mistaken, the come November it will then be 39 YEARS since it last had a contested leadership election. The JLP itself will be 70 years old in July. This will mean that for just a bit more than 55% of the JLP’s existence it hasn’t practiced democracy for it’s highest post. Without such a contest the JLP ends up with leaders beholden to powerful factions within the party and from outside the party (like the Shower Posse) and helps to steer the JLP towards the disturbing trend of picking (and not really electing) leaders who seem to come from and represent the interest of a minority (white or brown skinned business MEN). Thus the JLP will have trouble attracting the wider electorate. People who might vote for a viable alternative to the PNP instead are then:
– not motivated to get registered
– not motivated to vote even if they are registered
– motivated to vote for the PNP even though they don’t actually love the PNP.
And who can really blame them? Coming from a country that experienced colonial rule with its implicit racism, sexism and classism but which successfully struggled for universal suffrage that put an end to the low key racism and more overt classism in political representation, why on earth should anyone vote for a party in which folks like Bobby Montague or Delano Seiveright (much less Babsy Grange or Kamina Johnson Smith as women) have zero chance (or near-zero) of actually leading the party in the current context and in the context of the last 30-odd years?
And without a dynamic rival, the PNP has no real need for deeper self-renewal than what is necessary to win the majority of votes among those who are motivated enough to actually vote. And without this self-renewal you won’t get dynamism and truly fresh ideas and a highly committed work ethic in either party.
Jon, I cannot deal with your irrationality. Jamaicans are just biased plain and simple. Furthermore many of them are still clinging to Norman Manley’s legacy. For example, Dr.Davies is an arrogant minister and people like Paul Burke and KD Knight have criticised the pnp, but noone pays attenion to them; because it is more profitable to portray jlp as the disorganized party. In addition many of them have a problem with Edward Seaga’s leadership; Mr Seaga built over 20 national institutions. Jamaicans do not like discipline, we will never be like Singapore because Singapore’s leaders are very strict. Lee Kuan Yew was even awarded the Ignoble award for psychology, the Ignoble award is an insult. The Americans claimed that his draconian policies had a negative impact on Singaporeans
Heh Heh heh, …Mr. Seaga built over 20 national institutions….and how many did he destroy in the process? Dude, before you sing any praises to this man, you need to do some basic research about this maniacal subject. If he was such a financial wizard, as some have proffered, why is he working into his eighties? Why is it, “they” had to displaced a very qualified and capable female Chancellor of UTECH, to make room for him? Why was he dethroned unceremoniously from the helm of the JLP? Is this the same individual that borrowed over JA$200 million and forgot he borrowed the funds, only to take the matter all the way to the U. K. Privy Council and came out the loser? One thing I would attribute to him is being the father of 20+ years of political tribalism, unprecedented violence and a battle ground littered with bodies from an undeclared war.
Your youthful exuberance tends to undermine your “googling” skills, resulting in your propensity at name calling. Go back and read what Jon said….there are a few nuggets that you missed or did they just went totally over your head? Your raw unbridled buffoonery is unmatched on this blog. You have a lot to learn in the coming years and you should take heed of Sam Sharp’s unsolicited advice; luckily for you, have youth on your side!
Test, I am very familiar with anti-Seaga propaganda. I am aware of everything which you have stated in this blog. It is quite sad that you people do not know the deeds of most politicians in this country. After the Orange Lane fire, a report was compiled which implicated a member of the Manley administration and being the arrogant person that he was, he rebuked the commissioner. It was Manley who created the Pickersgill Commission for Political Purity to purge the administration of capitalist. Idealogical Nonsense. It was Dudley Thompson who stated that No angel died at Green Bay. It was Manley who invited that idiot Samora Machel, who famously declared that all non socialist should be killed in the womb. The NIEO was nonsense, while Lee Kuan Yew was busy building Singapore Manley was busy misleading the nation. Test, go and do a research on another politician and tell me what you find. The jlp is for the rich, pnp is for the poor argument is getting lame
If you cannot deal with my supposed “irrationality” then don’t read what I write. Though I note you haven’t been able to rationally debate the issue of the Economist despite my providing you with a detailed article outlining at least one example where The Economist exhibited what could only be termed sloppy journalism at best. You seem to just have ignored it, perhaps because you couldn’t deal with the facts.
I also note that you have not actually addressed any of the points I raised in my response to jay’s post. Did I misrepresent any facts in my post? Was there a contested leadership election for the position of leader of the JLP between 1974 and 2011? Is it not a fact that the last person who was not light-skinned to lead the JLP was Mr. Shearer in the late 1960s to early 1970s? Is it not a fact that in 2011 ALL the “leading” candidates for the JLP leadership position were light-skinned and usually upper-class persons? Or were Pearnel Charles and Bobby Montague the persons most touted in the newspapers as the next likely leaders of the JLP while Andrew Holness, Audley Shaw and Christopher Tufton were relegated as also-rans? If so then you must have been living in a very different Jamaica to the one that actually exists.
As for Mr. Seaga, well I will leave you to your fantasy world about that man. Seaga built over 20 national institutions (and those were certainly not the ONLY things he built; he also built that gangster’s den known as Tivoli), but he was not the best prime minister Jamaica has ever seen in terms of economic growth (that title would have to go to a certain Mr. Shearer who tends to be forgotten and whom Seaga pushed out of the leadership role the JLP after the 1972 election loss, before turning around and holding on to the post himself for four successive election losses after his own electoral defeat in 1989). Shearer’s problem though was that while Jamaica experienced some of the best economic growth in it’s history under his administration it also experienced the unsustainable situation of increasing unemployment (go read the research paper “Institutions vs. Policies: A Tale of Two Islands”. It is a really easy read and makes quite clear what Jamaica’s problems have been).
Oh, and here is a link for that paper “Institutions vs. Policies: A Tale of Two Islands”:
http://www.nber.org/papers/w14604
I read some of Peter Blair Henry’s work already. I did read the argument about Economist, but I am not impressed. Mr.Jon you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mind. I cannot attack Mr.Seaga because I know the deeds of the others. A lot of blood is on their hands. Eddie is just the scapegoat. You cannot discredit his achievements. Jon, I am pro-jlp because I look at things from an economic standpoint and the jlp has performed better in that regard. I really don’t love any party. However, the pnp represents everything I dislike (populist, socialism, radical black nationalism, land reform). There are a number of persons in Jamaica who support the jlp, because the pnp does not represent their conservative principles. Motty Perkins was not biased, he hated both parties but like Morris Cargill and Dawn Ritch he also hated what the pnp represents (Patois speaking was embraced in the 70s and Dancehall).
Merciful Father!!! what the world coming to?? So yute you plan to go to the intellectual ghetto to?
I read some of Peter Blair Henry’s work already. I read the argument about Economist, but I am not impressed. Mr.Jon you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mind. I cannot attack Mr.Seaga because I know the deeds of the others. A lot of blood is on their hands. Eddie is just the scapegoat. You cannot discredit his achievements. Jon, I am pro-jlp because I look at things from an economic standpoint and the jlp has performed better in that regard. I really don’t love any party. However, the pnp represents everything I dislike (populist, socialism, radical black nationalism, land reform). There are a number of persons in Jamaica who support the jlp, because the pnp does not represent their conservative principles. Motty Perkins was not biased, he hated both parties but like Morris Cargill and Dawn Ritch he also hated what the pnp represents (Patois speaking was embraced in the 70s and Dancehall)
Interesting. So you are not impressed. Did you actually read the links I provided or were you just unimpressed with the post I gave without reading the supporting links? Because if you read the links and were unimpressed I would have thought you would have been able to at least summarize where you think Mr. Adomanis was incorrect. Or is it that you were simply uncomfortable that Mr. Adomanis was able to point out glaring problems with the analysis of the Economist concerning Russia and simply decided to be “unimpressed” with what he wrote without going through the intellectual exercise of disproving his fact-based assertions first?
Also “I read some of Peter Blair Henry’s work already” is not the same actually having read that particular paper already. Have you actually read it already? And if so do you any sourced evidence that the facts contained in his work are incorrect?
As for Seaga, as I said, I will leave you to your fantasy world about that man. Even though nobody in the US embassy would agree with you (and given that the US government actually dealt with the man in the past, I would have every reason to believe what is written in the US embassy cables about the man).Go on believing the man is a scape-goat. But while doing so and since you seem to know so much about the man, why don’t you tell me which contested leadership election occurred between 1974 and 2011 for the position of leader of the JLP? Because I’ve noticed that far from engaging in a proper intellectual discussion you have for the most part completely avoided any points I raised (in part because I strongly suspect you cannot answer them or know them to be true and would rather avoid them) and instead go off on a tangent about the PNP-this and the PNP-that.
Perhaps you mistake my analysis of the problems facing the JLP as a tribute to the PNP. If you take the time to read what I originally wrote though you will see that nowhere is there any praise for the PNP and on the contrary I basically characterize them as lazy (since as I said, they don’t have have to do more than necessary to win the majority of votes from those who are motivated enough to actually vote; or to make it simple for you since you didn’t seem to get it: they don’t even try to appeal to the people who aren’t registered or who regularly don’t vote via well thought out policies).
You can continue acting as if what I say is not true, but the truth is staring you in the face with the declining voter participation and regular losses by the JLP (in contested elections) since Seaga’s days (since 1974 the JLP has won 2 contested elections, 1 uncontested election and lost 6 contested elections). Until the JLP comes to terms with the fact that it appears to represent only the upper class and that women generally (and men with darker skin) have no hope of real advancement in the party then it will always be handicapping itself at elections no matter what policy it proposes. And until the JLP gets back into the habit of having contested elections for its leader it will always have a problem with factionalism and with being able to convince the wider electorate of the reasons why they should vote for the party. Remember, the JLP wants their votes so the JLP needs to work for said votes by convincing said voters. Expecting to show up and have votes just come to you automatically without convincing others of the reasons why is a sure way to lose an election.
By the way, I notice you referred to Dudley Thompson representing West Kingston. Since Test and myself are apparently ignorant of the truth about Jamaica’s politicians, perhaps you can enlighten us as to when he represented West Kingston (hint: it was before independence); when Tivoli was constructed (hint: it was after independence); who was the representative for West Kingston after Dudley Thompson (hint: it wasn’t Mr. Thompson); who was minister of development and welfare when Tivoli was constructed (hint: it wasn’t Shearer) and what happened in West Kingston in 1966, 1997, 2001 and 2010. And maybe you would be kind enough to explain to us why a confessed drug dealer and his drug dealing father were able to run Tivoli Gardens while Seaga was around (and while he was prime minister at one point!) and why Seaga can claim to have only given the police a list of names (including that of Dudus) once (on what he admits may have simply been a dirty piece of a paper to boot) of those whom he claimed were conducting criminal activities in the area but apparently provided no supporting proof or witness testimony to enable the police to actually do police work and arrest these people. Come on, Seaga is a bright man no? And you fancy yourself to be bright too. So tell me, if I go to the police station tomorrow and say you committed murder but didn’t give the name of the victim or provide the police with any evidence other than your name, do you believe the police will arrest you tomorrow and put you on trial? For what? Murdering John Doe?
Now given your past responses I don’t expect that you will actually answer any of the questions I actually raised in this post or previously. But c’est la vie I suppose.
Mr.Jon, I am not interested in discrediting Mr.Seaga. I am interested in exposing corruption. You can continue to criticise his leadership skills and mention Tivoli, but I am use to anti-seaga propaganda. Go and do a research on other politicians and list their contributions. OH i forgot most of our politicians have none. The wikileaks cable also said that Horace Dalley is a big fan of Seaga and Portia isn’t a good leader in US eyes. Portia is only good at being Manley’s lackey, this woman has a very dark past
Well as I expected, not a single answer to any of the questions raised. And most likely because you either can’t answer them or don’t want to answer them because they make you uncomfortable. I guess I should say thank you for being true to the form that I’ve come to expect and dodging debate rather than engaging. Hiding from the truth though won’t make it untrue. It will only make you more frustrated as the “stupid” electorate increasingly just doesn’t bother to vote for either party for the reasons that are plain to see: the PNP being corrupt, populist and bankrupt of ideas and the JLP being arrogant, factional and borderline classist/sexist/racist.
Also note I was originally analyzing one of the responses that jay himself heard from someone i.e. the person votes for the PNP, not because he likes the PNP but because he doesn’t like the alternative and the reason he doesn’t like the alternative is because of the leadership of that party . Please note that if the JLP were to address their leadership issue they would most likely garner more votes. I’ve been pointing out the reasons behind their inability to address the leadership issue (which is central to their poor electoral record of 3 wins (1 uncontested at that) to 6 losses from 1974-2012)
A smart fellow wouldn’t deflect from that but think on ways in which the JLP could be made or persuaded to go down that route and finally have contested elections for the leadership again after nearly four decades and reinvigorate that party with a leader who has the known support of the majority of the party and won’t be beholden to factions which may or may not represent the majority of the party as opposed to the bits of the party that control the purse strings.
It’s highly doubtful that Mr. Holness would have kept his position if he were actually challenged for the role following the 2011 and 2012 electoral defeats. Were he to be challenged by say Tufton and Montague I would have to say the odds were better than even that Holness would trail both of them in terms of support among the delegates in proper internal election (at least he would have probably trailed them in 2012; the time between then and now might have been enough for him to win delegates over if he has been smart). If Tufton or Montague ended up being elected by the majority of the delegates then in a flash the JLP would be transformed from being a party always on the brink of internal chaos into a party lead by a person who has the genuine support of the majority of the persons actually in the party. That person would then be less reliant on external (Shower Posse) or internal (JLP factions) power brokers to keep his position and could focus on bringing across the message of the JLP to the people rather than simply trying to hold the JLP together and keep his crown.
But evidently you don’t see it that way and seem to think that all that needs to really happen is for the factions in the JLP to sit down and sing “kumbayah” and then have the media focus on the shortcomings of the PNP for all to be right and rosy. Well you are in for a rude surprise, because politics doesn’t work like that anywhere in the democratic world. Political factions will exist within parties. However their differences are always settled during internal elections (at least in parties that adhere to democracy; the system of having people run unopposed is a tradition of parties like the Chinese Communist Party and the old Communist Party of the Soviet Union). The faction with the most support wins the leadership position and that leader then has a mandate to set the policy of the party not just from his faction, but from other factions through compromise (and the other factions are more likely to compromise precisely because they know the leader doesn’t require their support in order to retain his position).
You and Test should read the books of Sives and Gray. Then you guys will realize that the pnp played a great role in garrison politics. West Kingston was represented by Dudley Thompson, a man who encouraged garrison politics. The pnp lost the first election because it was seen as the party of the brown middle class not the poor. The pnp was never for the poor and today it is still not for the poor. You can even read Figueroa and Sives study online.
Go and do your research on George Flash, Winston Blake and George Spence. In addition, Tivoli Garden was declared a model community by the World Bank and it was created because jlp supporters were being abused by pnp thugs. Anthony Spauldings was a big supporter of garrison politics, he was never ashamed of it. Manley was able to win elections because of men like Winston Blake.
Anthony Spauldings was a big supporter of garrison politics
You got that right, but he was the PNP answer to Edward Seaga. Seaga showed him the ropes, so to speak. 😀
What you do not understand was that Michael Manley did not support the whole tribal politics and arming of his supporters and in fact, took a lot of heat from within the ranks of the PNP to meet “fire for fire and blood for blood” mantra that your idol spewed from above high.
I remember as a kid, unbeknownst to my parents, I sneaked out of the house late one night to hear the great Michael Manley speak at a political rally. The Town Square was jammed packed, as supporters was bused in from all over. As the crowd waited patiently for Manley to arrive, a group of JLP supporters coming back from one of their own rallies, decided to drive straight through the PNP meeting (even though they could have avoided that route and used a bypass that was meters away from the center of the town).
Well, all hell broke loose, when huge boulders/stones were hurled at their vehicle, causing the JLP supporters to let off a barge of gun fire, causing the massive crowd to disperse in every which direction. Of course their fire was met with return fire from PNP supporters. When the smoke cleared, a 10-year old girl was the only victim, left paralyzed from a single bullet, from what appears to me at the time, to be hundreds of shots fired that night. The people I saw firing these guns were not thugs or armed mercenaries, but licensed firearm holders (lawyers, doctors and businessmen who knew each other). This was my first and only experience with a gun battle between opposing sides. The common complaint from the diehard PNP supporters that was within earshot of me, was that Michael Manley was a joker and must do something before the PNP supporters are completely blown away by the other side.
I think its high time we get pass the “past”. I know one must look at the past as a way of shaping the future and to ensure we don’t make the very same mistakes.
My problem in Jamaica is, we don’t take an objective look at the past as a way of learning from it, instead we choose to look at it through the eyes of trying to determine where the blame lies.
This sort of way of doing things will never allow us to come up with anything that could form part of any real plan for fundamental change and herein lies the problem.
The culture of “its not my fault a fe dem fault” has gotten us to where we are today and will no doubt continue to haunt us into the future.
I use my past as a benchmark to set new standards for today and the future.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device from LIME.
Except in Jamaica neither political party is learning from the past but rather living in it. One political party is living in the 1970s (with it’s economic policies) and the other political party seems to be living in the 1910s or 1920s (with the appearance it gives on how it views the majority of people on the island and those born with two X chromosomes).
I take it that we will from here going forward we will not hear anything from you about the performance of the PNP during their 18+ years of being in power? What about the financial meltdown during the 1990s? Very refreshing to hear from you that it is time we start looking forward and not behind 🙄
Test , you know and as can be seen from my entires I have Always been forward looking.
Most entries are current issues and from time to time I would have provided historical data and or inputs to support a point being made today.
If you are honest with yourself you would agree that has been my position.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device from LIME.
WHEN WILL THE JLP LEARN?
THE EDITOR, Sir:
The governing party is like a rudderless ship, while the opposition has chosen to wash its dirty laundry in public. Therefore, it is apt to say that history is repeating itself. During, 1986-1989 economic growth rates averaged between 5-11 percent. Further, national institutions like the Heart Trust/NTA and the Office of the Contractor were established. Additionally, by 1989 the crime rate was a little over 400, this was a significant reduction in comparison to previous years. However, the then administration suffered a massive electoral defeat in 1989. Although economic growth was prevalent during the latter years of the Labour administration, it is often said that little development occurred. Unlike, economic growth which refers to an increase in GDP/National Output; economic development is a qualitative index which refers to “an overall expansion of the economy in areas such as education, welfare and healthcare. The Labour administration failed to balance the people’s lives and the opposition took advantage of that perceived weakness. After losing the election, the jlp descended into chaos. There was a very aggressive tussle for the the coveted title “party leader”. This resulted in the forming of rival factions such as the gangs of five and eleven. The media became obsessed with portraying the flaws of the jlp; therefore the pnp was able to run the country amok without anyone noticing. Although Jamaica experienced negative growth rates in the 1990s, the opposition was in such a parlous state, so it was not considered to be a viable alternative to the governing party. The party’s image was improved when Bruce Golding was installed as its new leader in 2005. Bruce Golding successfully transformed the image of the jlp and as a result of that, the Jamaican people decided to replace the inept pnp. However, the Golding administration failed to communicate effectively with the electorate and very little emphasis was place on social development. The pnp was able to capitalize on the shortcomings of the jlp and the party was victorious in last general election. It can be concluded that the jlp does not learn from past mistakes. The party has only been in opposition for a few months and we have already witnessed its descent into chaos. Furthermore, this has benefited the inept pnp because the media and the electorate will no longer focus on its shortcomings, because the jlp’s mess is more entertaining. Although the jlp understands the importance of fiscal consolidation, the party should understand that development must be people centred. Therefore, the government should also seek to ensure that provisions are made for the most vulnerable groups in society and never forget that communication is a vital aspect of every organization. In addition the opposition party must learn to settle internal factions in an amicable manner. When the jlp learns these lessons the party will be unstoppable and the electorate will never experience 18.5 years of the pnp’s maladministration again.
Lipton Matthews
lo_matthews@yahoo.com